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A lesson in recent history - KSU Edition

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  • A lesson in recent history - KSU Edition

    I see the latest talking points regarding the demise of our football program is to trash the talent on the field and question whether we have the players in place that would allow us to win any Big 12 games. A lot people comment on lack of team speed and size of our players.

    I am hoping our KSU posters will chime in on this and be honest with their recollection of the recent history of their football program.

    Flash back to Ron Prince hiring. Ron immediately comes in makes recruiting splash by stealing Josh Freeman from Nubs and wins over many fans with his open dialog compared to Snyder and his young and talented assistant coaches he brought with him.

    Ron struggles out of the gate and the immediate reaction of the KSU fan base was to question what Snyder had been doing with recruiting. They called into question whether Bill was working at the end and highlighted player after player that appeared not to belong in the Big 12. The KSU fan base turned ugly on Bill. They were the ones that coined "old balls" and chose to back their new coach versus the man that saved their football program. For 2 seasons all we heard about we heard that once Ron Prince got his players in that they would be better.

    Eventually, very slowly fans began to realize Ron wasn't the man for the job. He signed questionable classes (something T. Gill has NOT done yet) and lost to teams he should have beaten repeatedly. The football program was going backwards. They had allowed themselves to regress so far that the only course of action was to hire Snyder back to try to reverse the damage done by Ron Prince. Suddenly the man the KSU fanbase trashed was back to be their savior (admittedly their are a vocal few that don't like Bill being back, but hard to argue with his results AGAIN.)

    Now with the same players Prince had we see KSU competing. Their players don't look as slow, they don't look as small and they look like Big 12 players. Why? Coaching. Being assignment sound and disciplined makes up for lack over overall athleticism. The only time you see disparity is speed is when our players are running after another teams players because they were in the wrong place to begin with. If you are in position to make a tackle on the spot than people don't notice speed. Its when you are running around without a clue of defensive position that one notices your lack of speed. Snyder did that. Mangino did that. Good coaches make players look much better. Bad coaches make players look worse.

    I understand Turner Gill is our coach. I understand the notion that you must give someone time. HOWEVER, giving someone time that ALL INDICATIONS are that he is going to be an abject failure is just counter intuitive.

    I give Turner the rest of this season to give us some reason, any reason, to believe. If it continues on its current path...WE MUST NOT GIVE HIM MORE TIME. We must act swiftly. We must start over.

    If I am on the AD search committee I am having private conversations with my candidates to find out who they have in mind for football coach. Can they get them quickly? Would they come? This would be a large data point to consider on who I hire as next AD.

    I know this isn't popular, but the adage "you must give a coach at least 3 years" is bullshit. If in your job you hire and employee that you know can't cut it and shows no signs of making it. You are a lot better off cutting bait and rehiring versus waiting until its obvious to everybody that that person isn't going to make it.

  • #2
    Re: A lesson in recent history - KSU Edition

    Wave, I see the logic you are using, however a data set of ONE is a little small to instantly assume a pattern. How many games did Mangino win in year 1?

    Mark Mangino won 2 games.
    Mike Gundy won 4 games.
    Gary Pinkel won 4 games.

    4 Games isn't outside the realm of possibility. Let me ask you Wave, should we have fired Mangino after year one and missed an OB victory? Should MU have gotten rid of Pinkel and missed out on 6 Bowl games? Or OSU with guny and missed 4 bowls in 5 years? I mean their first years were pretty stale. Your data says so!

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    • #3
      Re: A lesson in recent history - KSU Edition

      I already know wave's response:

      "Mangino had way less talent.....blah blah blah"



      look, if Gill doesn't perform in two or three years, I agree that we should look at other options, and I'm sure he knows that as well....give the mofo a chance

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      • #4
        Re: A lesson in recent history - KSU Edition

        Here is the logic I don't get. The "give coach minimum of 3 years" logic. Who came up with the gem? The national association of college football coaches?

        In any other job, if you don't show the core competencies to be able to do a job successfully the employer will cut bait and start over. I don't care if it is a job where patience is important. Say starting up a brand new sales territory. You know as an employer it will likely take a couple years before showing fruits of labor. You are prepared for this....but if the employee you bring on shows NONE of the core competencies required to be successful, say they have customer complaints, blow a bunch of early sales calls, and embarrass the company. You don't give them 2 years just because you knew it was going to take time. Hell no. You cut bait and start over.

        If T. Gill still hasn't shown any shred of hope for his future coaching ability at this level, you have to cut bait. Move on.

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        • #5
          Re: A lesson in recent history - KSU Edition

          If we don't give Mangino three years, we don't have an orange bowl

          modify: also, he doesn't have his team...and believe it or not, that can make a difference...it takes time to build...I agree, we should never get embarrassed like we did on saturday...and if we lose out and lose all our games like that, I'll be pretty disappointed

          but to expect him to come in and win games after that piece of dog sh!t that mangino laid, makes you crazy...and you're setting standards that he was never going to and could never meet

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          • #6
            Re: A lesson in recent history - KSU Edition

            [quote author=Joe Norris link=topic=1427.msg15411#msg15411 date=1286292232]
            If we don't give Mangino three years, we don't have an orange bowl

            modify: also, he doesn't have his team...and believe it or not, that can make a difference...it takes time to build...I agree, we should never get embarrassed like we did on saturday...and if we lose out and lose all our games like that, I'll be pretty disappointed

            but to expect him to come in and win games after that piece of dog sh!t that mangino laid, makes you crazy...and you're setting standards that he was never going to and could never meet
            [/quote]

            There is your reason. Plus, not to sound like a debbie-downer, but we are Kansas football. If we could get consistently 7-5 to 9-3, that's probably the best case scenario. Likely we are 4-8 to 7-5 in the new Big 12.

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            • #7
              Re: A lesson in recent history - KSU Edition

              If we fire Gill after one season, the next guys that look at KU Football are going to see a quick trigger finger and it's going to scare them away.

              EDIT: One exception would be gross incompetence or unethical conduct. I just don't see the incompetence thing yet; every new system coming in has bumps with the old players.

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              • #8
                Re: A lesson in recent history - KSU Edition

                The problem with that Wave is that you are comparing a 5 day work week with college football. What you have "SEEN" from Gill so far is 5 days of work. Are you telling me that in your business analogy you would fire a guy his first 5 days on the job? Every business I have worked for had a 2 week evaluation period. 10 days. A Full season (nearly).

                I ask you the same question I did earlier Wave. Should OSU have dropped Gundy because in 10 games he hadn't shown many "fruits of labor"?

                I DO NOT follow the 3 season logic that you keep throwing around. However, it is sound logic. 3 season's allows you to have 2 recruiting classes. It isn't that often that true freshman start in college football. So you have 2 years to bring in some guys, get them into your system, and roll the dice. It is sound logic, even though I don't really follow it. I have said over and over that if true signs of improvement aren't seen this year and many MORE next year, Gill wont see a 3rd season.

                Now, Wave, I would like to know what makes you think we are any higher on the scale then Iowa State, or Colorado in terms of football. News Flash to everyone, we aren't. We may have better facilities, and fan support, but our program isn't any higher then theirs. We ARE NOT Oklahoma State at this point. Looking at recent history, CU blows us out of the water. We are closer to ISU level than anyone else.

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                • #9
                  Re: A lesson in recent history - KSU Edition

                  Wave, it is threads like this that make me cringe when people think I am you... Poor Logic my friend. May be time for a new shtick.

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                  • #10
                    Re: A lesson in recent history - KSU Edition

                    If I ever see a picture of TG doing bunny ears at a golf tournament, I will blow my head off.

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                    • #11
                      Re: A lesson in recent history - KSU Edition

                      ^^^

                      I'm convinced that TG would blow his head off as well

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