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  • Originally posted by beakumhawks View Post
    ^^ The whole defending of Trump is like some sort of cult that I just don't understand. I'm not going to go into all the reasons why he is a shitcan of a president, but his latest actions simply cannot be defended under any circumstances. For the Trump cultists this whole thing is an attempt to derail his re-election. To suggest that his opponents are creating the scare simply to hurt Trump is to suggest they are the epitome of evil, which I don't understand. You have to be a real rat bastard to destroy an economy just to get back at a president, and regardless of what you think of the other side you need some serious help if you truly believe his opponents would do something like that.
    I have given up on phog.net for now due to the fire hose spray of right wing disinformation posters there, impervious to reality, and bias of at least one right wing moderator. With that choice in context of your reaction here, I am going to leave the following video in both this thread and my science thread, and I would strongly advise watching it for anyone who wants to respond to okjayhawker with the hope that facts, evidence and logic will impact his views (and I am not saying hereby never respond to him, I am saying definitely take this into full account):

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    • This entire event will be examined to a far greater extent than anything in human history, but this is to date the best overview I have seen on the American intelligence and response failures:

      https://foreignpolicy.com/2020/03/25...tory-covid-19/

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      • an()maly, thanks for the video. The information provided is really discouraging and causes me to reconsider how I interact in discussions/debates on Fb and phog.net and here, etc. Hmmm.

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        • Originally posted by an()maly View Post

          I have given up on phog.net for now due to the fire hose spray of right wing disinformation posters there, impervious to reality, and bias of at least one right wing moderator. With that choice in context of your reaction here, I am going to leave the following video in both this thread and my science thread, and I would strongly advise watching it for anyone who wants to respond to okjayhawker with the hope that facts, evidence and logic will impact his views (and I am not saying hereby never respond to him, I am saying definitely take this into full account):

          "The evidence tells us that reducing the influence of denial won't happen through engagement with the minority who deny science."

          I'm as guilty as anyone, but the Ape Room is a case study in doing the exact opposite of this. E.g the Covid-19 thread is 150 pages long and 60% of it is nonsensical posts by vegas or wavethewheat and people engaging with those comments.

          Not only does it not accomplish anything, but it centers the discussion on bad and unimportant information instead of good and important information. We naturally assign higher importance to things that are talked about more. E.g. even people who disagree with Trump care a lot more about immigration than they did a few years ago.

          Thanks for the video. Not new info to me, but a nice presentation of it. He didn't really address it directly, but I wonder to what extent the backfire effect applies to people who aren't starting out from an incorrect position (every one of his examples were studies targeted towards people who are wrong). I would imagine anytime worldview/identity is challenged that the effect will be there. Hopefully it's not as strong in people who are more open to evidence.

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          • Originally posted by GardArmighty View Post
            The virus was not Trump's fault. China withheld information and that is inexcusable and they should be held accountable. When the problem was delivered to Trump's doorstep, he mishandled it every single step of the way. (Please don't counter with "But he stopped some of the flights from China!" or "Warren called it racist!") He denied, then downplayed, then delayed necessary action by 6-8 weeks. This pandemic would have been here no matter what, but if we would have implemented our late March procedures even 4-6 weeks earlier, then the whole scope of this plague would have been dramatically altered. I say this because of the epidemiological science, not because of any political views.

            We can speculate how Hillary would have handled it. Maybe she would have done better, maybe she would have done worse. Who cares? The reality is that we had Trump, and when he had his chance to be presidential and to shine, he fucked it up royally. Tens of thousands of lives is the price we paid for that.
            Gard, this is a complete over-exaggeration due to your blind hatred of the man. You continue to do this and each time you lose a little more credibility for your legit criticisms.

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            • Originally posted by Hawker007 View Post

              Gard, this is a complete over-exaggeration due to your blind hatred of the man. You continue to do this and each time you lose a little more credibility for your legit criticisms.
              Give your description of how it played out.

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              • I'm really curious what in that post is considered an exaggeration. "He mishandled this every step of the way" is certainly hyperbole, but it's not meant literally.

                The rest is all pretty much objectively true.

                It's not Trump's fault - check
                China withheld info - check
                Trump denied - check
                Trump downplayed - check
                Trump delayed - check
                Acting 4-6 weeks sooner would've had a dramatic effect - check
                Tens of thousands of additional people will die due to our delayed reaction - check

                Trump has done a great many things right that he could have plausibly done wrong, but overall his performance has been at least as bad as one would expect based on who he is.

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                • Originally posted by sean View Post
                  okjay, can you show me when Trump was called racist for his travel ban on China? I can find when he added a bunch of Muslim countries in Africa to his travel ban that there were calls of racism: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/04/o...n-nigeria.html

                  But the racism charges that I find seem to be more about tweets and comments Trump made calling it the China virus and stuff like that. I can find that Trump claims that he was called racist over the China travel ban, but I don't see actual evidence and I am curious to learn more if you can point me to the video or articles quoting folks making that specific charge.
                  Sean, I think this is what i was thinking about.

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                  • Originally posted by LARPHawk View Post


                    He didn't really address it directly, but I wonder to what extent the backfire effect applies to people who aren't starting out from an incorrect position (every one of his examples were studies targeted towards people who are wrong). I .
                    So you have proof Jesus didnt rise on the 3rd day?

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                    • Originally posted by an()maly View Post

                      I have given up on phog.net for now due to the fire hose spray of right wing disinformation posters there, impervious to reality, and bias of at least one right wing moderator. With that choice in context of your reaction here, I am going to leave the following video in both this thread and my science thread, and I would strongly advise watching it for anyone who wants to respond to okjayhawker with the hope that facts, evidence and logic will impact his views (and I am not saying hereby never respond to him, I am saying definitely take this into full account):

                      That guy may be on to something, I was not a Trump fan, but watching how he was attacked with lies since he won the election, and who was doing the attacking. It has made me a defender of his. The more lies, the more I dig my heels in.

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                      • Originally posted by Hawker007 View Post

                        Gard, this is a complete over-exaggeration due to your blind hatred of the man. You continue to do this and each time you lose a little more credibility for your legit criticisms.
                        Please respond to my theses and tell me where I'm wrong.

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                        • Originally posted by okjayhawker View Post

                          That guy may be on to something, I was not a Trump fan, but watching how he was attacked with lies since he won the election, and who was doing the attacking. It has made me a defender of his. The more lies, the more I dig my heels in.
                          Textbook.

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                          • Because anybody who actually thinks any President could have done a whole lot more 4-6 weeks sooner is completely out of touch with reality and the politics that would’ve come into play at that time. Could we have had more PPE and better testing? I think so. No way we could’ve shut things down at that time though. His message was positive and down playing the severity of it, which it absolutely should’ve been!!! You don’t cause panic to an entire population despite it not being the truth. That’s been the case for every leader for centuries.

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                            • You're giving me your Trump defending opinion, but there are examples of leaders who did heed the warnings and took measures 4-6 weeks earlier than we did, and whose outcomes were significantly better than ours. My feelings about Trump are irrelevant; I'm making a claim that is supportable or refutable with evidence, and I've asked for data that supports your view and refutes mine.

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                              • WTF are you talking about? What do you think he could’ve done 4-6 weeks earlier besides making sure we had better PPE and testing? I’m not defending Trump, I’m defending asinine left wing accusations like yours.

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