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[Serious] Let's solve the illegal immigration crisis

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  • [Serious] Let's solve the illegal immigration crisis

    I am not trying to be sensationalist, and if this gets out of hand, I'll move it, but we've had many conversations where cooler heads have prevailed, so I'm giving it a shot.

    I think we need to establish a base line here, from left to right, far left to far right....can we all agree that we can't just let everyone in? If you think we can, that's fine, I'd just like to hear how that works

    Once we get that established, we can talk about border detainees and how all that happens

    Here's the story that prompted this thread

    Here's the headline that the local station had: WaPost: Girl dies of dehydration while in Border Patrol custody, 'had not eaten for days'

    While true, if you know the facts of the story, the headline is intentionally misleading. The girl was, unfortunately, starved and had a fever, prior to being put into custody. We can talk about the treatment after being put in custody, but this girl was toast long before that happened.

    So, what do we do here? I have sympathy that these people are in terrible situations and want better, but we can't just let everyone in, so, what's the answer?

    (Trump wall jokes are played out and aren't necessary here, so, if you want to go that route, I'll banish you to the outhouse board for a week)

  • #2
    For something as complex as this, is it possible to turn comments back on for this one thread?

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    • #3
      Originally posted by KUGDI View Post
      For something as complex as this, is it possible to turn comments back on for this one thread?
      I wish...I really liked that feature except for the notifications

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      • #4
        Do you want to discuss policy? Or do you want to discuss the optics versus the facts of this particular story? Because if the former, shoot, I'm your ultimate huckleberry. I focus my pro bono practice on precisely this.

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        • #5
          I am 100% for expanding LEGAL immigration, and the work visa program. I am also 100% for a big fucking wall on southern border. We have got to know who is coming into this country. But I really do not have sympathy for those who put themselves in harms way trying to break the law sneaking into our country. I saw in another thread, "play stupid games, win stupid prizes".

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          • #6
            Having worked with a lot of guys who came here legally from Central American countries, I've heard a lot of horror stories about the crap that goes on there. One friend who came here from Honduras lost his father, his uncle, and a brother to gang violence there. He used to visit his mother, but now flies her to the states. He legitimately fears for his life when he visits there.

            As much money as we've burned in the Middle East, you'd think we could figure out a way to help our southern neighbors so that people aren't fleeing their homes.

            That said, we have plenty of room for more people here, and opportunity for them. We do need to overhaul our immigration system. I also think we need to work on integrating immigrants into the fabric of our society.

            Though if you skip the line and sneak in, you should be sent home. If you sneak in and pop out a kid, you and the kid should be sent back to your home country. If your parents dragged you hear as a kid and you've been a law abiding member of our society working to contribute, I'm good with letting you stay.

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            • #7
              The first thing we need to do is get people to talk about it honestly. I can't stand the rhetoric of things like "Trump is separating kids from their families!!!ZOMG, he's a monster", while ignoring when and how long the policies have been in place and WHY they are the policies (Criminals,terrorists,sex traffickers,drug traffickers/disease etc).
              The second thing we need is more transparency from BP and ICE and better oversight. They pull some shady shit, or at least shit that seems shady when they aren't transparent.
              The third thing is people need to realize the magnitude and difficulty of processing all legal immigration and increase funding and personnel, people don't want to wait for the process to play out when their lives are at stake. At the same time I don't necessarily think just needing to escape your country automatically makes you desirable to our country, you have to be able to become a productive and integrated member or our society. I know that sounds harsh, but we can't just take on a ton of welfare.

              Once we get to that point , we can start talking about revamping the actual policies.

              I think a big thing that needs to happen is the people/governments of these countries may need a revolution, I know war sucks, but it may be the best in the long term if they can root out the evils in their midst.

              Oh, ETA: The wall is a dumb idea, IMO. If any one cares why I think that I can explain, but the short answer is, it's expensive, not likely to work and may actually be detrimental to the cause.

              ETA again: I think another thing a lot of people need to realize is we can't selectively enforce immigration laws just based on feelings. I understand it hurts to see someone you may have liked and known for a couple years get deported (I've experience this myself), but if we don't enforce laws , then there is no point in having them.
              Last edited by WolfShirtSophomore; 12-14-18, 11:09 AM.

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              • #8
                A step 1 that most Americans probably already agree on is to give people a legal avenue to come here. In my experience, the most vocal opponents of illegal immigration tend to be unaware that most people have no legal avenue to come here. There’s a myth that all you have to do is “get in line” and wait.

                I also think most people agree on giving an avenue towards legal residency for people who are already here. A woman in KC was deported recently despite having lived here as a productive member of society for decades, and despite having a husband and teenage daughter who are both US citizens.

                There’s a myth that a huge flood of people want to come here. There’s a reason the number of illegal immigrants in the county has been decreasing ever since the economic troubles of 2008. Economically, the opportunities here just aren’t very good if you don’t have a skilled trade or the qualifications for white collar work.

                Other popular myths that tend to make discussion fruitless are that illegal immigrants commit more crime and make our country less safe (the opposite is very much the case), and that illegal immigrants don’t pay taxes (they pay more or less the exact same taxes as citizens with similar incomes).

                And of course our President very obviously uses immigration as a scare tactic to rile up his base which further complicates honest discussion. He lies about minorities over and over and over again and always in ways that portray them negatively, never in ways that portray them positively. Most people know better than to listen, but about a third of the country believes whatever the guy says.

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                • #9
                  LARP, how was your deportation example legal? I was under the impression that if you are married to a citizen, then you wouldn't be deported, unless they find out the marriage is a sham meant to hold onto a green card.

                  I don't think most people agree on amnesty, there will be a lot more contention on that given the perception that amnesty will only encourage more illegal immigration. i.e. if you can come here and hide for a few years, you can get residency/citizenshhip. Whether or not it does, I can't say for sure, maybe we call it a myth, regardless, I don't think there is as much agreement on it as you think.

                  Curious, what lies about minorities are you referring to? I'm unaware of anything other than the times when the media took him out of context when talking about MS-13, terrorists etc.

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                  • #10
                    I think the old McCain-Kennedy Bill is a good place to start a serious discussion on immigration reform. It addressed most of the major issues and sufficiently alienated the far sides of both parties which, to me, is indicative of an actual compromise.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by LARPHawk View Post
                      and that illegal immigrants don’t pay taxes (they pay more or less the exact same taxes as citizens with similar incomes)
                      My personal experience with illegals regarding taxes was very different.

                      I cannot speak to all illegal immigrants, but every single one of the ones I worked with in the past were maxing out exemptions so that their effective income tax rate was nil. And can you prove Arturo doesn’t have 8 kids? I worked with him, he was a great dude. Smart as hell, if I could have gotten him a green card, gotten him into college, and funded the rest of the actual living expenses for those four years he probably would have ended up an engineer of some sort (no, that wasn’t an option for me). I knew he and his wife Cecilia well, had them over for barbecues. Their daughter was very smart and was doing great in school. No, he didn’t have 8 kids, but as a manager you weren’t allowed to question that when they filled out their tax forms.

                      I’ve caught them using stolen SSNs, still maxing our exemptions, so that whomever it actually belongs to probably ended up having to spend their dollars to fix audits, amend their credit histories, etc. And don’t play the naivety card, they knew exactly what they were doing. They aren’t stupid (which is another thing we need to get past; brown skin and lack of English skills doesn’t mean they’re unintelligent).

                      And the money they make? No, it doesn’t always go back into the economy to push sales taxes. Many are sending a big portion of what they make home where American dollars stretch a lot further. It’s why you often see 10-15 males living in small homes. That way they aren’t paying much in rent and can cycle out to a new city every few years, and head home after a decade. In fact, for a while there it was the expectation, that you would go spend your 20’s in America and send what you made home. I can’t speak to whether or not that’s still true though.

                      Now, I will say that working illegals seemed to use fewer services, so maybe they aren’t getting as much bang for their buck there.

                      That might come across as anti-immigrant, but I’m not. I’m addressing that if we want a real conversation we have to accept all the real facts, not just there ones that support our positions. And that last part isn’t directed at you personally, LARP.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by LARPHawk View Post

                        I also think most people agree on giving an avenue towards legal residency for people who are already here. A woman in KC was deported recently despite having lived here as a productive member of society for decades, and despite having a husband and teenage daughter who are both US citizens.
                        I was listening to NPR a few months or years ago, don’t remember how long, and there was a story out of Boston about how they were deporting a lot of illegal Irish immigrants. They were focusing on a young man, Irish illegal, who was in his mid 20’s and been here since he was around 16. He and his gf got into a heated argument at the mall with their kid in a stroller. If I recall he grabbed her arm or something. The police were called and he was taken into custody as males are. While in jail, ICE was tipped that he was an illegal immigrant, and they came and arrested him as soon as he was let out. And they were holding him for deportation back to Ireland.

                        So they interview his lawyer, who goes on saying how he was a stellar citizen “just trying to make it” and he didn’t understand why he was being deported.

                        Then they bring on the gf, who by the way is an American citizen, and says how she can’t believe that the US is forcing her, A CITIZEN!!!, to leave her country so that she has to go live with the father of their child in Ireland. And of course no one on the radio questions that.

                        So the question became, are we being given the full story? I look into it.

                        “And now, the rest of the story.”

                        The young man had been interviewed by a paper while in holding. First, he was completely aware that he was here illegally. Second, he had already been arrested a few times prior and had specifically been told by both his lawyer and a lenient judge that he needed to keep a low profile as ICE was known to be actively looking for illegals in Boston, and Massachusetts at the time was a state where they were complying with the federal mandate that illegals who were jailed had to be reported to ICE.

                        Thats not even to start with the nonsense that the US was forcing the gf to move to Ireland. Maybe that’s the smart move for her and the child, maybe not, but get the fuck out of here with that nonsense. It’s her choice.

                        All that is to say that again, if we want to make changes we have to get the whole story. Not just the side that ends up with Jeff Bezos getting an influx of super cheap labor. Not just the side that illegals are evil gang members. The whole picture.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by WolfShirtSophomore View Post
                          LARP, how was your deportation example legal? I was under the impression that if you are married to a citizen, then you wouldn't be deported, unless they find out the marriage is a sham meant to hold onto a green card.

                          Curious, what lies about minorities are you referring to? I'm unaware of anything other than the times when the media took him out of context when talking about MS-13, terrorists etc.
                          A lot of people are under that impression, but it isn't the case. She could have applied for a green card based on being married to a citizen but since she came here illegally she'd first have to leave the country to even begin the application. At that point the process could take 5-10 years and there's no guarantee she'd ever be reunited with her family. A good friend of mine is currently in the same boat.

                          Read Trump's twitter if you want to see Trump's lies about minorities. It's not worth the time it would take to catalog them. Just on homicide alone, he stated a number of homicides committed by illegal immigrants since 9/11 that was about 40x the actual number. He also quoted that something like 90% of white homicide victims are killed by black people when the real number is about 1/8th that. He's lied about minorities dozens and dozens of times on Twitter alone.

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                          • #14
                            https://www.wsav.com/investigates/cr...der/1658642492

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                            • #15
                              I think he worded it correctly. Million's of illegal immigrants do not inherently make our country less safe, nothing about it being more safe. People are people, regardless of nationality, religion, etc. Mexicans, French, Iranians, Japanese: none are inherently any more violent than the other. We certainly shouldn't let millions of serial killers in unabated, but that's not the reality of what is happening.

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