New KS College Admissions Standards: Your shipment of FAIL is in port

[The42Yardstick]

http://cjonline.com/news/state/2010-...sion_standards

Old admissions standards
Students must do one of these:

• [li]Complete pre-college curriculum OR[/li]
  [li]Get a 21 or higher on the ACT OR[/li]
  [li]Rank in the top 3rd of their HS graduating class[/li]

New admissions standards
Students must:

• [li]Have a 2.0 GPA for a pre-college curriculum PLUS[/li]
  [li]Get a 21 or higher on the ACT OR[/li]
  [li]Get a 980 on the SAT in Math and reading OR[/li]
  [li]Rank in the top third of their HS graduating class[/li]

In summary:


So basically we're now accepting 9 out of 10 dumbasses rather than 10 out of 10 dumbasses. Great. Plus, neither KU nor KSU elected to tell the KBOR to go fuck themselves and raise standards for their respective schools. Isn't that just dandy?

Maybe some state politicians would shit kittens if we really raised standards because of their constituents bitching about no longer being able to send their BEAUTIFUL SPECIAL SNOWFLAKE SMARTEST KID IN THE WORLD (who really isn't) to KU or KSU, I understand that. Problem is, I don't give a damn, and neither should you. The eventual goal should be to separate KSU and KU from the Emporias, Fort Hays', and Pittsburgs of the world and get rid of the students who just aren't ready--and will never be ready--to hack it at the two big schools. If we want KSU to be a solid Tier 1 research institution (we do, shut up chemhawk) and we want KU to stop backsliding in their national rankings, truly raising admissions standards would be a damn good place to start. Plus, a raise in standards could bring in some out-of-state students who wouldn't otherwise come to Kansas for an education. And guess what's awesome about bringing in smarter out-of-state students compared to in-state kids? More prestige AND tuition dollars to help make up for the initial drop in in-state students. Oh, not to mention Kansas would have a better chance of not losing its brightest in-state students to other states because they'd no longer have to sit through a bunch of classes with people who shouldn't even be in college in the first place.

In further summary,

[ICThawk]

New KS College Admissions Standards: Your shipment of FAIL is in port

So... If I am understanding you properly you don't think everyone deserves the right to an education?

[The42Yardstick]

Re: New KS College Admissions Standards: Your shipment of FAIL is in port

[quote author=ICThawk link=topic=2797.msg31455#msg31455 date=1292594665]
So... If I am understanding you properly you don't think everyone deserves the right to a education?
[/quote]

I'm pretty sure that I see what you did there.

But if you're being serious, yes, they do. That's why you have PSU, ESU, and FHSU. Or community colleges. Or trade schools (kind of a different animal than the others, but we need a LOT more of them). What I'm saying is that KU and KSU should be going after the best and the brightest.

[TheSinisterUrge]

Re: New KS College Admissions Standards: Your shipment of FAIL is in port

*whistles*

I happen to hold two degrees from Emporia State University. If you want a teaching degree in Kansas, ESU is the way to go...and saves some cash.

[The42Yardstick]

Re: New KS College Admissions Standards: Your shipment of FAIL is in port

[quote author=TheSinisterUrge link=topic=2797.msg31458#msg31458 date=1292594908]
*whistles*

I happen to hold two degrees from Emporia State University. If you want a teaching degree in Kansas, ESU is the way to go...and saves some cash.
[/quote]

I hear ya. I'm not saying that those schools can't have their own specialties, but KU and KSU should be set up like Texas does with UT and A&M. You might as well make them the flagships and have feeder schools (University of Kansas-Pittsburg, Kansas State University - Fort Hays, as hypothetical examples) for those who might not have focused as much in high school but really turn it on in college.

[kcjhawks4]

Re: New KS College Admissions Standards: Your shipment of FAIL is in port

[quote author=ICThawk link=topic=2797.msg31455#msg31455 date=1292594665]
So... If I am understanding you properly you don't think everyone deserves the right to an education?
[/quote]

Gotta love it when people use the word deserve. Deserve and fair are the words of the weak.

[TheSinisterUrge]

Re: New KS College Admissions Standards: Your shipment of FAIL is in port

The problem is, if you up the standards in Kansas (or the two largest universities) you're going to see a drop in enrollment at those two schools. It's not as though the state population is going to sustain 25,000+ on its own.

And there's still something not quite right about insinuating that the other schools are for students that weren't really college material out of high school. I spent time at KU...I wouldn't say that my classes were all that challenging on Mt. Oread.

[The42Yardstick]

Re: New KS College Admissions Standards: Your shipment of FAIL is in port

Well, the students who aren't really college material but want to go should try their hand at community college. That's partly what it's there for. I'd be ok with slightly upping the standards for PSU, ESU, and FHSU as well, but not as high as KU and KSU. If you did that, then I can definitely see a major drop of enrollment happening at those schools. And yes, I'm sure there would be an initial drop in enrollment at KU and KSU, that's one of the big reasons why KU and KSU elected not to up their standards in the first place. They don't want to lose the tuition money. That's why you try to give incentives for very bright out of state students to come in and offset those costs as well as keep some of the smarter Kansas kids around. It's not a model without some financial risks, I'll admit that. But having a bunch of students who shouldn't be at KU and KSU ultimately serves neither institution well because it keeps them from reaching for the best and brightest, and it hurts those students who aren't ready because they'll run into some nasty history and/or chemistry courses and drop out after having spent thousands on tuition.

Then you have the question of students getting degrees from KU and KSU who ultimately coasted their way through college and end up not having their degree really be worth a hill of beans once potential workplaces see that they've coasted rather than maximize their potential, but that's kind of a nationwide problem that there aren't any quick fixes for.

I should've put this all in the OP, but then it would've been really long.

[RandytheHelpfulPineapple]

Re: New KS College Admissions Standards: Your shipment of FAIL is in port

[quote author=TheSinisterUrge link=topic=2797.msg31466#msg31466 date=1292595660]
The problem is, if you up the standards in Kansas (or the two largest universities) you're going to see a drop in enrollment at those two schools. It's not as though the state population is going to sustain 25,000+ on its own.

And there's still something not quite right about insinuating that the other schools are for students that weren't really college material out of high school. I spent time at KU...I wouldn't say that my classes were all that challenging on Mt. Oread.
[/quote]

There's alot of pressure on professors to reduce standards for the sake of pushing weaker students through. Sad, but true. One could argue that the classes at KU weren't as challenging, because your peers were slowing them down. It's like an AP class in high school that gets bogged down by kids that shouldn't be there.

I agree with 42, these standards are laughable. As an alum who is invovled in recruitment efforts, it's embarrassing to reveal these standards to a prospective student. Trying to convince an out of state student (and their parents) that Kansas is a good buy is a tough sell when all the other schools they're looking at (Iowa, Wisconsin, hell -- even Illinois State) have more rigid standards.

But hey-- it's all about money in this land of milk and honey. Let's just let the unwashed masses in.

[Oobers]

Re: New KS College Admissions Standards: Your shipment of FAIL is in port

I agree with the admission standards stuff.

But thats not really a telling sign of how good a school is. I don't think peers slow you down, well because I've never had a teacher slow down their lesson just for someone who wasn't getting it.

Second, I thought I've seen somewhere that KU has one of the highest dropout rates in the Big12 conference which points to too many high school students going to school where they shouldn't.

But I have absolutely no facts to back that up.

[The42Yardstick]

Re: New KS College Admissions Standards: Your shipment of FAIL is in port

[quote author=Oobers link=topic=2797.msg31480#msg31480 date=1292597387]
I agree with the admission standards stuff.

But thats not really a telling sign of how good a school is. I don't think peers slow you down, well because I've never had a teacher slow down their lesson just for someone who wasn't getting it.

Second, I thought I've seen somewhere that KU has one of the highest dropout rates in the Big12 conference which points to too many high school students going to school where they shouldn't.

But I have absolutely no facts to back that up.
[/quote]

Well, it's definitely not the end all, be all standard to measure schools with by any means. That's why I said that raising standards would be a good start towards improving both KU and KSU.

But yeah, relating to what Randy said there is not only pressure to let some students through for student retention numbers, but a lot of profs and/or TA's are also pressured to hit a certain target grade for their average class score. An 80% class average for a Physical Geography lab at KSU and an 80% class average for a Physical Geography lab at the University of California-Berkeley are not created equal. Assuming that you're using the same grading standards at both schools in this hypothetical situation, you'd have a higher chance of having to bring up the scores of some students at KSU who frankly haven't earned the (raised) grade that they're given. Of course, one could argue that getting rid of targets for class averages could erase that problem, but then you open up a whole different group of potential problems.

I've read similar things about KU's dropout rate, but I've yet to see any stats backing that one up.

[Evolvehawk]

Re: New KS College Admissions Standards: Your shipment of FAIL is in port

You would have undoubtedly seen a rise in tuition along with a rise in standards too high, because enrollment would have really declined.

Besides, Kansas can barely get the evolution question right...what makes you think this is within their ability to get correct?

[The42Yardstick]

Re: New KS College Admissions Standards: Your shipment of FAIL is in port

[quote author=Evolvehawk link=topic=2797.msg31491#msg31491 date=1292598795]
You would have undoubtedly seen a rise in tuition along with a rise in standards too high, because enrollment would have really declined.

Besides, Kansas can barely get the evolution question right...what makes you think this is within their ability to get correct?
[/quote]

Well, I don't exactly have a lot of faith in state legislators or the Board of Regents to get it right, but KU and KSU could essentially make their own standards if they really wanted to. The new standards are just a set of recommendations. And again, that's why you go hard after the best in-state students AND recruit heavily out of state (see Randy's post).

[RandytheHelpfulPineapple]

Re: New KS College Admissions Standards: Your shipment of FAIL is in port

It's absolutely a sign of how good a school is. Your education is greatly affected by your peers-- they're the ones you study with, bounce ideas off of in the classroom, rely on for group projects and whom set the standard for how a class will be taught and graded. I've talked to several frustrated KU professors whom bemoan the pressure to grade-inflate and allow underachieving students continue in their tracks.

You can't tell me that Psych 104, SOC 104, and PHIL 140/180 weren't a complete joke and a money grab. There is also a reason the Business school allows pre-business classes before their admission process-- to grab more dollars from unqualified students. I sometimes wonder how much better those 4-5 classes could have been if they weren't in Budig and curved generously.

Better students also mean better alumni: higher endowment dollars, better connections to industry (beyond KC and the surrounding states) and bigger research dollars. It's like football, but instead of MCMW, it's MSMD (more scholars, more dollars).

[ICThawk]

New KS College Admissions Standards: Your shipment of FAIL is in port

Can a state with the population the size of KS support two high end schools? Is a KU-Manhattan and KU-Lawrence a better way to go? Can shared resources help a "rise in standards -> drop in enrollment" issue?